Figured this subforum may get enough traffic for those who have some more experience in this department...maybe mil/leo guys, maybe target shooters, maybe those that have thousands of rounds under their belt...?

My personal experience with 308 has primarily been a bolt gun with the typical 3-9x40 hunting scope. That did a best of just a little over 1 moa with good ammo and sitting on the bench taking my time with my so-so eyesight.

When I shoot various calibers on the bench at the range (22lr, 380 acp, 9mm, 223, 7.62x39, 308, 54r, 30-06) I tend to settle into 3x or so at 25 yards, a little more at 50. And when trying to actually SEE where my hits land at 100 anywhere from 7 to 9 (some scopes 2-7x32, some 3-9x40.

I was surprised one day I shot a buddy's AR with a budget fixed 4 power red dot at 100. The red dot was small and crisp and after spending some time with him zeroing it in I hit dead on at 100 which shocked ME because my eyesight isn't what it used to be now that I'm over 40. Generally some of the red dots I've used on an AR end up being pretty large at 100 covering up almost the entire red diamond on the 100 yard red and white gridded targets (1" grids) that are used for zeroing.

I'm leaning towards moderate weight projectiles like the 168 grain stuff for 308 use.

That being said, one can obviously rule out a 1x red dot or a fixed 2.5 power scope in this application as the optic would greatly reduce the potential range one could see/engage with comfortably. One the other hand I have a hunch something like a fixed 10 power scope that some longer distance shooters use with target type shooting would be problematic with a target or threat at much closer distances, especially those that move.

A lot of the AR type scopes are fixed 4x, 1-4, sometimes things like 1.5x-6, etc....what are your thoughts on an ideal scope in terms of magnification and why for 308/7.62x51? In a perfect world I'd like to not give up too much target acquisition at closer ranges, on the other hand I wouldn't want to struggle for a precise shot if the target is say 300 or 400 yards out.

Its not set in stone but my guess would be anything passed 400 or 500 yards would not be as likely given I'm writing from the Nova area and this may also hold true for more remote parts of VA/WV/NC/TN/KY etc.

Longest I have shot is 100 yards thus far and I did like having 14x magnification at 100 yards so I can see where my shots landed on the paper.

Thanks in advance for any and all replies.

A.

It really depends on your shooting, and for checking out your groups and target impact a spotting scope is really the best. I’ve taken a 16 inch AR-10 out to 1000 yards with a 5-20x scope, which was more than enough for seeing a silhouette target and noting impact for other shooters. I suspect you’d be fine with that as well, and keep in mind that glass quality is far more important than magnification when it comes to seeing what you are shooting at. 3-18x will get you a better field of view on the low end, but it’s not easy to find something that provides both a wide angle and high magnification. They are out there, but you are going to spend big bucks for them.

What distance you planning to shoot at? Precision shooting, hunting?

Even with 168 SMK, 308 will struggle beyond 600 m if you want precise shots. I’ve hit out to 1000 m with it but with the bullet drop and wind drift, it takes a few shots to get it right. 175 SMK performs much better and is a better choice if you want precision and distances. Still, 308 is effective out to 800 m, beyond that, you are better off with 6.5 Creedmoor or 300WM.

Keeping that in mind, my initial scope was Mark 4 ERT 4.5-20x50 with TMR reticle. I found that tube diameter and reticle are better than magnification and switched to Mark 6 3-18x44 H59. Because with 308 the bullet drop is quite significant as you near and beyond 800 m (especially with 168 SMK), even with 20 MOA mount, there were not enough revs on Mark 4 and I had to use reticle for extra distance shots. 34 mm tube on Mark 6 gives you more revs and when paired with 20 MOA mount and good reticle such as H59/Tremor 3, shooting at long distances is a breeze.

I don't see its role being pushed passed 400 or 500 yards TBH given localish terrain just doesn't have many theoretical shots in a SHTF situation/to go war/hell situation. Just would like to get a really good range of adjustability in magnification in the short distance to reach out and touch a little.

I would imagine enough magnification to aid in striving for 1ish to 2ish MOA at those distances

Personally, I would use a 1.1 x 4 Kahles or a 1.5 x 6 Kahles.

My goal would be to get a hit.

Some people have a different goal and like to shoot fly specks.

Why Kahles?

Try one sometime an hour before the sun starts to come up or an hour after the sun has completely gone down.

They are extraordinarily bright and they have a tremendous eye box for comfort and fast target acquisition.

If you are lucky you can find a used one for about six or seven hundred dollars

US Army chose Sig Tango6 in 1-6x24 for their DMR, Vortex Razor II in 1-6x24 has been used by US SOCOM for quite some time. If you want something more precise with parallax adjustment and FFP then I wouldn’t go beyond the 15x for 600 yard shots. Honestly, at this distance 5.56 in 77gr would still work just fine without the bulk and expense of AR-10 platform.

AK66...agreed on the distance/trajectory similarity with 5.56 but the preference in this application more like PSL meets Garand in the 21s century.

Tried and true platform (AR), modern day equivalent to 54r and 30-06 when comparing factory 150ish to 160is grain stuff. That weight is also fairly common/popular from a quantity standpoint.

But will heavily consider add research the 1-6 mentioned.

Cash you have a similar sized 1.5-6, will research that one too.

I think I need to spend more time wrapping my head around the quality of the optic vs crutching with magnification.

Closest thing I have handy would be a 1.5-5 Leupold Vari x iii I could try. Sounds like also could consider/try one of the others I have laying around....a 2-7....but that's 32 instead of 24.

Gracias for the dos pesos.

Primary Arms 4-14 if you’re on a budget.
Nightforce ATACR 7-35 if you’re not.

You are welcome to look thru my Kahles low powers (at and after sundown) any time you like.

For me... the ability to see a target, acquire that target instantly (thru a PERFECT EYE BOX and low power scope and place one to three rounds on target instantly is how I have hunted my whole life.

Quick shots are typically 6" at 100 yards or 12" at 200.

Well aimed shouts are 2-3"

And bench shots are almost always under 1 MOA.

The other suggestion is MPBR shooting. Once I studied this... I changed EVERYTHING.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm

For example, my #1 rifle in a 9,3x62 Mauser with a 1.5 x 6 Kahles.

She is 4.25" high at 100 yards

She is 4.5" high at 108 yards (max. target being 9")

She is zero around 200 yards (dont care and doesn't matter).

She is 4.5" low at 286 yards.

I call MPBR "paper plate" shooting.

She will ring 8" steel at 400 yards 9 out of 10.

She shoots 1/2" at 100 yards on the bench.

I have played with her some at 500, but that test was a failure.

Good luck...

It all comes down to you intention in glass aelection... and caliber selection as well.

This is all very good information, thank you all.

Generally it seems that hunting scopes of 3-9 seem commonplace. What type of limitations does one run into with fielding something like that in the role I've mentioned?

You can lose a lot of sleep playing pros cons with higher magnification vs real world lower magnification/clearer pic for faster shots kinda gig...

There are some very good 2/2.5-10x out there for the best of both worlds, or use a 1-6x as suggested if a near red dot at close range is important. We all get hung up on clearing our houses and shooting at bad breath distances, but then finding a little target at a couple hundred yards is the more likely scenario. Unless you are looking for tiny groups those will give you what you need to hit 400-500 yards on steel. Go for the best quality you can afford; the clarity makes a world of difference and I’d buy a lower magnification but more expensive scope over the inverse. I’m in Fairfax and probably gone this weekend, but you’re welcome to check out my Vortexes, Valdata, ACOG, etc sometime if you’d like.

Good stuff

Question for you all:

Would going with an AR in 30-06 change your recommendations?

Why or why not?

Similar recoil/energy/ballistics....but a little more UMPH and I may have a lead on a stash of 30-06 at old school prices which may sway me go to long action.

A 30-06 is a long action required weapon. I know of no such platform... short of the Nemo or whatever it is in the belted magnums.

The lower the power of the optic and better the quality... the quicker it will allow a shot to occur... this is called "Eye Box" for lack of an more complex explanation.

A quality low power optic acquires a target as fast as the bead on a shotgun... allowing for tremendous confidence.

If a man is a one shot sniper type from a prepared position... my advice is not suited.

Noreen BN36.

And yes in a Go to Hell type setup speed will matter and that's where I'm juggling things like 4-14, 5-25, 1-10, etc.

‘06 is hotter than .308 but my scope recommendation remain the same. If you’re looking for a long range shooter beyond 500 yards skip the AR platform and use a bolt gun with a 5-20x or so. AR-10 out to 500 run the 308 and use either a 1-6/8x or a 2/2.5-10x.

OK... did not realize there was such... but guess now... there always is.

I probably have a Minox 3-15 laying around somewhere I might sell you. ZA-5 HD. Super glass for the money. But it is the wrong optic in many many ways.

IMHO... an optic should do one thing very well... and everything else adequately.

Not everything OK.

I am not a 1500 meter shooter... but I will take long shots if necessary.

I have friends that are... some are EXCEPTIONAL.

It all comes down it intent.

Too much glass is the Achilles heel for many... just my opinion.

If you do try a like new used 1.5x6 30mm Kahles and don't like it... I will buy it from you for $600. So very minimal risk on the test drive.

I concur with that. Cheap ammo (he mentioned) is a big upside.

I have been on the search for several 30-06 rifles (conversion to 9,3 x 62 Mauser) for various friends. Three offers were made... Weatherby, Tikka and Browning. Not sure if the friends acquired yet or not... if not you can have the leads if you decide to go bolt.

Quick follow-up I was thinking about... 30-06 is not really a long-range caliber. If you work up specific loads you can do okay with it. But if long range is your bug, try 6 Dasher, some of the 6.5 stuff or move yourself up to a 338 Edge etc.

Nothing really wrong with .30-06... but the bullet coefficient on slow-moving 308 bullets is not your friend.

Exactly right, if you’re starting from scratch go with a 6.5 or something similar. If you’re planning for the end of the world, and there’s nothing wrong with that, you will probably find a great deal more 308 then 30-‘06 lying around which is another argument against a very limited availability gun like the Noreen. I’ve been guilty of the same thing many times, asking myself if I could do something instead of whether I should do it.

If Ali became a reloader... and very invested in the task at hand... ALL NEEDS MET.

I would suggest an AR-10. Three different uppers.

6.5 Creedmoor with long range glass.

.308 with 1.5 x 6 glass... because ammo is super common and available.

.375 Raptor with 1-4 glass... because .375 Raptor is a monster... Brown bear capable caliber. Also very useful out to 400 yards. But if not a reloader... forget the Raptor.

Let me add two cents by saying that mission drives the gear and not the other way around. 308 and 223 are the most common and thoroughly researched rounds: whether it’s hunting, survival or tactical applications. I still prefer 223 for urban environment but 308 is probably a more universal option. 30-06 and 6.5 CM are excellent rounds but can you find them during a crisis? Plus 30-06 by itself ain’t a precision cartridge, you’ll need SMK bullet for it. 6.5 CM is awesome but good luck stockpiling it - plus I think it’s an overkill for shooting within 600-800 m range. US military has been using 308 in 168/175 SMK for years and it worked pretty well for medium ranges for them. That’s it for the ammo.

From that point LPVO with “Christmas Tree” style reticle or at least Mil-Dot/TMR are more universal for medium range shooting. If you use your rifle in urban environment, clearing structures with regular scope is a pain unless you add backup red dot or offset irons to the gun. At the same time CT style/Mil Dot reticles gives you precision capability over regular ballistic reticles. I would also stick to AR-10 platform if you’re not planning to go for long range. For example, I’m confident in my skills with AR-15 on medium ranges so I’m selling my AR-10 and getting a 6.5CM bolt gun for long range. But for my AR-10, I used to have 308 upper and 6.5CM upper with more powerful scope, so I can easily switch based on my mission requirements. Again, this is similar to what military does when issuing deployment kits to their shooters.

Some of the thought process on 30-06 over 308 wasn't so much a decision between superiority in power/accuracy of one over the other...because they are pretty close. Hand loads (which I'm not up to snuff yet because I don't have the room currently in NOVA to get into reloading but do have a Hornady reloading book and study it often) would obviously show the 30-06 pulling ahead when looking at longer/heavier bullets due to more case capacity.

It was mainly because I have more of it around vs 308. Granted most of it isn't super precision stuff its mainly USGI m2 and m2ap stuff so I'm not expecting as much precision especially out of the m2ap as you are talking steel center, lead bullet, copper jacket...hard to imagine super concentricity during 1940s war efforts.

As time marches on 30-06 will slowly become harder to find vs a modern cartridge like 308...but I'm 43 and won't live forever and I may never go thru as many rounds as I'd like to think I would. Hence why I was kicking the 30-06 possibility around.

Out of polymer hunting style bolt actions the 150ish and 160ish grain stuff don't seem terribly different in felt recoil for me...with respect to 308 vs 30-06 factory loads vs factory loads ...kinda like 20 gauge vs low recoil 12 gauge.

Taking all the info in and processing...so much stuff one wants...so little time to do it all.

Looking thru an old school weaver K2.5 the other day really showed that the amount of magnification I "think" I'll need/want may be flawed. It seemed good enough to make respectable hits if it was on an AK or AR at 100 yards. I have dialed up some of the magnification on a cheap quality 3-9 scope with a larger objective lens and wasn't able to "see" as well but the item was "larger" which would be a good thing for target identification in the first place.

At one time I was somewhat of an expert on reloading (there is a permanent post by me under rifle reloading with about 35,000 views...

Anyway...

Never, repeat never use a Hornady reloading book for reloading purposes. Is a beautiful book with glossy pictures, but the data is horrendous. All Hornady books should be immediately discarded in my humble opinion.

Sierra makes a great book,as does Richard Lee. There's a multitude of other sources as well.

Hornady reloading data is all over the map. Really bad stuff.