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#1650495 - 06/18/20 12:28 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
JBaccheus Offline
Double barrel

Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 73
Loc: VA
City or County: Fairfax
I find the germany comment to be hilariously relevent. Our current political and social climate seem to be mirroring GE circa 1930.

Increased polarization, the demonization of minority (read small, not racial) groups, Outcry for more/less policing, fewer guns. Quotes about trade deficit and foreign interference. Not to mention the economics.

The funny part is nobody looks to the past. We are repeating it.

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#1650500 - 06/18/20 12:36 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
JBaccheus Offline
Double barrel

Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 73
Loc: VA
City or County: Fairfax
I personally think the statues are an important part of our history. No war has ever been one dimensional, and the people involved are no different.

But.... For alot of people, those statues are artifacts of slavery, representing not the civil war, but centuries of hate and oppression. People like to simplify, and if a politician can use that as a platform, they will. If you can use that statue to represent the institutional hatred, and then show yourself attacking that hatred by tearing down a statue (or more renewably, calling for it to be torn down.) You instantly can endear yourself to the populations affected.

Its all just politics, keep your heads straight.

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#1650517 - 06/18/20 01:20 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
dustydog Offline
drooling old single shot fanatic

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 2298
Loc: Chester
City or County: Chester
Excellent observations and rather telling given the current political climate.But to borrow a line,just remember that "history does not repeat itself,but it certainly does rhyme".
What would your take on dealing with the statues be? I want to hear from someone younger than myself and the other O*D F**TS on the board! Not a fish,honestly curious.
_________________________
"Why the H..l do they call it 'common sense'? I ain't seen much of it in my lifetime." R.L. "Junior" Byiers

Don't blame me if you find your life wanting,it takes sand to bet it all on one card.

Waiting for snow to cover my tracks.

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#1650536 - 06/18/20 02:09 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: dustydog]
ChrisC Offline
Gun fool

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 758
Loc: Prince William County
City or County: Nokesville
Originally Posted By: dustydog
Excellent observations and rather telling given the current political climate.But to borrow a line,just remember that "history does not repeat itself,but it certainly does rhyme".
What would your take on dealing with the statues be? I want to hear from someone younger than myself and the other O*D F**TS on the board! Not a fish,honestly curious.


Alright, I'll bite if 40 is young enough...

To me, the Civil War is a very different conflict than our other wars, and shouldn't be held to the same standard. People went from the south to fight for the Union, and from the North to fight for the confederacy- and very few southerners who fought owned slaves. Robert E Lee wasn't a slave owner, but felt loyalty to his state and supported state's rights. Slavery was the issue that sparked it, but ultimately the conflict began over the question of state vs federal authority. (Don't forget that the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't signed until well AFTER the war began, and only freed slaves in certain states- it did NOT end slavery altogether). Because of the multiple issues, divided loyalties, and the fact that many confederate soldiers did not necessarily support slavery or own slaves, the statues and monuments are not as black and white as they may seem. The war exacted a terrible price, so they serve as both a reminder of how far we've come and a bit of the underdog spirit that Americans have always supported. There is a certain nobility in standing up for something, and the South suffered far more in the war.

If we go back into the history of any major figure we will find stains and less than admirable actions, but this latest movement is a slippery slope. Were MLK or Malcolm X perfect figures? No, but we highlight what they did right and understand that it outweighed the wrong. Don't Jefferson and Washington deserve the same? Was Lee a more honorable figure than Sherman despite fighting for the losing side? I would argue that he was. We don't venerate our ancestors, but in my opinion history should be seen for what it was and not assigned a status of good or bad. Why not take down the Enola Gay for the death that she represents? Why allow the statue of Chris Kyle to stand given the men that he killed? Because the victors write the history books.

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#1650574 - 06/18/20 03:58 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: dustydog]
JBaccheus Offline
Double barrel

Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 73
Loc: VA
City or County: Fairfax
Oof.

There is no right answer, so here is mine.

Leave the statues where they are, install standing plaques giving greater detail about who the individual was, and what they did in life.

The statues are important. They represent part of our past. They can be used to show how far we have come.

We have a truly poor public education system. Instead of 'teaching' that Christopher Columbus discovered America (Joke), I would like to see a more indepth approach to our nations history, the displacement of peoples, and the development of our collective society and expansionism.

I am 23, I attended one of our states public schools. During my attendance, I was 'taught' that the civil war was due to slavery, and that Lincoln freed the slaves. There was no in-depth discussion about the balance between states rights, and federal powers, Nor about how Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in Confederate territories. I fully realize that this type of education is not in vogue, and that it can be politically incorrect, but a lack of this type of contentious content impacts our children's ability to think critically, or to form opinions based off of more then a single source. I realize that sheep-like behavior is in the public interest (laugh), but it would be nice to see us equipping a generation with the tools necessary to succeed, and to advance our nation, rather than importing needed talent.

Bottom line is that the statues are not the problem, as much as the political narrative is.

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#1650592 - 06/18/20 04:54 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: JBaccheus]
imaduckin Offline
Gun fool

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 890
Loc: moved to SC
City or County: eastern sc
Originally Posted By: JBaccheus
Oof.

There is no right answer, so here is mine.

Leave the statues where they are, install standing plaques giving greater detail about who the individual was, and what they did in life.

The statues are important. They represent part of our past. They can be used to show how far we have come.

We have a truly poor public education system. Instead of 'teaching' that Christopher Columbus discovered America (Joke), I would like to see a more indepth approach to our nations history, the displacement of peoples, and the development of our collective society and expansionism.

I am 23, I attended one of our states public schools. During my attendance, I was 'taught' that the civil war was due to slavery, and that Lincoln freed the slaves. There was no in-depth discussion about the balance between states rights, and federal powers, Nor about how Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in Confederate territories. I fully realize that this type of education is not in vogue, and that it can be politically incorrect, but a lack of this type of contentious content impacts our children's ability to think critically, or to form opinions based off of more then a single source. I realize that sheep-like behavior is in the public interest (laugh), but it would be nice to see us equipping a generation with the tools necessary to succeed, and to advance our nation, rather than importing needed talent.

Bottom line is that the statues are not the problem, as much as the political narrative is.
omg there is a ray of light for a dark future
_________________________
Glocks are ugly, and please dont quote from buds gun shop bible, i really dont care

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#1650619 - 06/18/20 05:53 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
dustydog Offline
drooling old single shot fanatic

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 2298
Loc: Chester
City or County: Chester
I don't believe it,duckin and I agree on something.



TWO excellent responses (yes chris,you are "young enough),two somewhat different responses,but both center over the same flaw in this whole narrative regarding the statues:

EDUCATION

My youngest(he'll be 32 this year) regularly bemoans the fact that most people in his age bracket cannot reason their way out of a ditch full of raw sewage.Sadly,the peaceful protests over police accountability and civil rights(yes we are still fighting that fight over half a century later) have been overshadowed by dimwhits on both sides.Time for a change.Let's pay teachers enough that we can truly attract people that want to teach.Let's teach reasoning and critical thinking,history with all the warts and nastiness that we seek to hide(mostly from ourselves) for a change. Let's live up to our ability to reason our way as humans.

As to the fate of the statues:frankly,I don't believe that I'll see a resolution in my lifetime to that issue,there is always somebody on ether side willing to waste time being offended by somebody on the other. As artifacts,yes they need to be preserved,to forget the American Civil War is to forget that before it we spoke in terms of "the United States ARE";after we speak "the United States IS". Big difference there,even with all the growing we still need to do.So put them in a museum.

If we need a monument or monuments there,let the largest one be a simple obelisk with the following inscription on all four sides:

FOR THE DEAD OF BOTH SIDES
APRIL 12 1861-APRIL 9 1865
_________________________
"Why the H..l do they call it 'common sense'? I ain't seen much of it in my lifetime." R.L. "Junior" Byiers

Don't blame me if you find your life wanting,it takes sand to bet it all on one card.

Waiting for snow to cover my tracks.

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#1650651 - 06/18/20 07:40 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
JBaccheus Offline
Double barrel

Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 73
Loc: VA
City or County: Fairfax
I was lucky enough to have come across people with common sense who instilled in me my basic life skills (and love of alliteration). The greatest gift you can give to the ignorant, is knowledge and patience.

I am glad to know that other right-minded souls perservere. Keep on struggling.

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#1650756 - 06/19/20 05:56 AM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
dustydog Offline
drooling old single shot fanatic

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 2298
Loc: Chester
City or County: Chester
tip of the hat,"pea shooter",may reason guide you well.
_________________________
"Why the H..l do they call it 'common sense'? I ain't seen much of it in my lifetime." R.L. "Junior" Byiers

Don't blame me if you find your life wanting,it takes sand to bet it all on one card.

Waiting for snow to cover my tracks.

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#1658082 - 07/10/20 08:23 AM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: dustydog]
Paratus Offline
Addicted

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 573
Loc: Virginia
City or County: Appomattox
Originally Posted By: dustydog
One question for the assembled:

Why are you folks afraid to put these statues in a museum?

They would be protected,properly preserved by the curators,and safe from vandalism.Anybody that would care to view them could,,the dangerous traffic patterns on Monument could be resolved,and with no rally point,a huge amount of local angst and violence could be averted.

Once again,why are you afraid to put these statues in a museum?


Why are the revisionists afraid to leave them where they are? This has nothing to do with the so-called Civil War, slavery or anything else. Wake up.

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#1658127 - 07/10/20 11:48 AM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Paratus]
dustydog Offline
drooling old single shot fanatic

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 2298
Loc: Chester
City or County: Chester
Originally Posted By: Paratus
Originally Posted By: dustydog
One question for the assembled:

Why are you folks afraid to put these statues in a museum?

They would be protected,properly preserved by the curators,and safe from vandalism.Anybody that would care to view them could,,the dangerous traffic patterns on Monument could be resolved,and with no rally point,a huge amount of local angst and violence could be averted.

Once again,why are you afraid to put these statues in a museum?


Why are the revisionists afraid to leave them where they are? This has nothing to do with the so-called Civil War, slavery or anything else. Wake up.



I think you really don't know what "revisionist" means regarding history.
_________________________
"Why the H..l do they call it 'common sense'? I ain't seen much of it in my lifetime." R.L. "Junior" Byiers

Don't blame me if you find your life wanting,it takes sand to bet it all on one card.

Waiting for snow to cover my tracks.

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#1658404 - 07/11/20 06:05 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
Agent19 Offline
2A 4 All

Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 3669
Loc: VA
City or County: 22973
I have zero desire to see the statues of veterans of the civil war removed:

But:
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Lost_Cause_The#start_entry


In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."


https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history

Let’s not fool ours selves. All this recent violence, riots and statue hating isnt about the civil war.




https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015...y-debunked.html
_________________________
I’ll gladly take questionable mean tweets, a strong economy, energy independence and a Respected Country, over high inflation, millions of illegals aliens, mask/ vaccine mandates and pedophile in chief.




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#1658411 - 07/11/20 07:06 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Agent19]
dustydog Offline
drooling old single shot fanatic

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 2298
Loc: Chester
City or County: Chester
Originally Posted By: Agent19
I have zero desire to see the statues of veterans of the civil war removed:

But:
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Lost_Cause_The#start_entry


In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."


https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history

Let’s not fool ours selves. All this resent violence, riots and statue hating isnt about the civil war.




https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015...y-debunked.html



A bit close to the issue for Virginians/Richmonders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Sorry,Agent;but to call them veterans would be a misstatement. It was only due to a general amnesty that the military commanders of the secession were not captured,tried,and executed.
_________________________
"Why the H..l do they call it 'common sense'? I ain't seen much of it in my lifetime." R.L. "Junior" Byiers

Don't blame me if you find your life wanting,it takes sand to bet it all on one card.

Waiting for snow to cover my tracks.

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#1658416 - 07/11/20 07:20 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
P3Bill Offline
VETERAN PEASHOOTER

Registered: 12/21/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: Wilderness
City or County: Orange County
Anyone in the Middleburg area know if the "J.SINGLETON MOSEBY HERITAGE AREA" Signs have been removed?


Edited by P3Bill (07/11/20 07:21 PM)
_________________________
"Guns are a lot like parachutes ~ If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again"

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#1658582 - 07/12/20 04:21 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: dustydog]
Mark S Offline
Mark S

Registered: 04/29/10
Posts: 4038
Loc: Rappahannock County, VA
City or County: Front Royal
Originally Posted By: dustydog
Originally Posted By: Agent19
I have zero desire to see the statues of veterans of the civil war removed:

But:
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Lost_Cause_The#start_entry


In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."


https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history

Let’s not fool ours selves. All this resent violence, riots and statue hating isnt about the civil war.




https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015...y-debunked.html



A bit close to the issue for Virginians/Richmonders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Sorry,Agent;but to call them veterans would be a misstatement. It was only due to a general amnesty that the military commanders of the secession were not captured,tried,and executed.


That is incorrect. First 'veterans' in this sense are men under organized arms. The Brits for instance did not summarily execute the soldiers they captured during the Revolutionary War.

Secession is not an argument for treason, though the argument as to whether a state could secede can be debated. Likewise, nowhere in the Constitution does it give the 'government' the power to make war against one of the states. In fact, going back to the Treaty of Paris, September 3, 1783, which stated: “Article 1st. His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz, New-Hampshire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free, sovereign and independent states . . . ", one could see the argument that the states could consider themselves sovereign.

The fact is that few people actually thought of themselves firat as Americans at that time, most identified first and foremost by their state. Few people ever left the state they were born in and many never even left their county in the 1850s. If the 'north' had seceded likely all of the Union generals would have been the 'confederates'.

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#1659824 - 07/18/20 04:14 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
6.5x55 Offline
Nature points out the folly of men

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 3976
Loc: Ashland
City or County: Hanover
The states could choose to leave the union.

The north invaded the south, not the other way around.

Lee was a West Point grad, hero in the Mexican-Americsn war, West Point superintendent from 1852-55 and heir to the heroric revolutionary war spirit of Harry Lighthorse Lee.
Lee did not want to command troops in the invasion of Virginia. He gave up his commission because he loved his home more than his job.

Lincoln could have chosen peaceful separation of the union, but he chose to invade the south and directly cause the deaths of more Americans than any other President. If any statues should come down, if any likeness should be taken off of coins and currency, it is that of Lincoln.
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#1659845 - 07/18/20 06:36 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
Agent19 Offline
2A 4 All

Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 3669
Loc: VA
City or County: 22973
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/first-shot-civil-war.htm

The January 26, 1861 edition of Harper's Weekly featured the following illustration, showing the First Shot of the Civil War. The first shot was fired on January 10, 1861. It was fired by the South Carolinians on Morris Island. They fired on the Union Ship "Star of the West" as it attempted to reinforce Major Anderson at Fort Sumter.



Imho, the attack of the confederate statues are the left trying to erase it's racist past.
Sadly, as usual they are using misinformed black Americans, and guilt ridden whites to do their bidding.

Most if not all of these statues are Democrats.



_________________________
I’ll gladly take questionable mean tweets, a strong economy, energy independence and a Respected Country, over high inflation, millions of illegals aliens, mask/ vaccine mandates and pedophile in chief.




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#1660220 - 07/20/20 03:27 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
M3_Voodoo Offline
The Accountant

Registered: 04/26/17
Posts: 317
Loc: United States
City or County: PORTSMOUTH
Man am I glad I was fortunate enough tobhave teachers who were willing to spend more time teaching real history. The statues being an issue isnt new. People are just now listening. Lincoln has been quoted as saying if he thought he could win the war without freeing slaves, then he would have. The idea that the statues an acknowledgement of ones southern heritage doesnt align for everyone. That notion is a reminder not just of industry but of the fact the my ancestors were brought here as slaves and were subjected to some pretty bad things (to put it nicely).
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#1997100 - 04/02/23 06:04 PM Re: Monument Avenue Statues [Re: Dadcpu]
Dadcpu Offline
Potty Mouth Grandpa

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 8161
Loc: Virginia
City or County: Henrico County
Yeah I have never owned anyone, much less any slaves. I did however see a black produced video of the black warrior women who were ordered by their kings to catch and sell them to the Europeans. Those women looked bad **I'M AN IDIOT**!
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"God made man, but Sam Colt made men equal."
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it and....GET OFF MY LAWN!


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