I have revised my website to include downloadable PDF forms including my Bill of Sale form.

VGT advertisement page

A person is under NO obligation to assist in an investigation, period. Refusing to talk with law enforcement is an absolute RIGHT. You never have to talk with them. Obstructing justice is a Proactive action taken to prevent the law from being enforced , refusing to speak with law enforcement is not a crime, ever. The ATF calls me I'm telling them where to go and how to get there. Same applies to DWI ck points say nothing. Within a few minutes they wave you through. Once on the way back from a political meeting we lined up 25 cars at a checkpoint , everyone up gave the same answer. They shut down the checkpoint that night. Some of you guys are just way too law enforcement/ government friendly. Wake up and realize they are NOT your friend.


If you cooperators or collaborators( to be more specific ) want to waive your RIGHTS feel free but just remember whose heads were getting shaved when the occupation of FRANCE ended.

Bottom line up front, do your own research and ensure your follow the laws. Non of us on the forum will be sitting tall in front of the man if you do something illegal.

I offer this bill of sale to my customers: Bill of Sale

I also drudged up my list of references for buying, selling and shipping for non-licensee.

Here is the USPS instruction on mailing firearms. USPS Reference

Here is the UPS instruction on mailing firearms. UPS Reference

Here is the FEDEX instruction on mailing firearms. FEDEX Reference

Here is a useful link to the ATF's FAQ page regarding mailing and transfer of firearms. ATF FAQs for non-licensees

Here is a link to the Virginia State Police's FAQs regarding firearms. VASP FAQS

Made me realize that a blog might help people with their shipping and transfer questions so.... The Gun Dude's Blog

Its amazing how a state such as VA with its pro gun culture has such a rampant ammount of gun owners who are willing to do the ATF/governments work for them.

Ever wonder why guns sell for more here than retail? Think about why people pay more than retail for a used gun when they can go to their local FFL and be out the door cheaper with a new gun............

This BOS must be a joke. It does NOTHING, while sharing your PII with complete strangers and creating paperwork trails back to you.

People of this state should be gratefull they don't have to deal with the crap those in Maryland, NY, Jersey have to deal with. Go live in one of those states for 20 years then come down here and talk about a BOS or other such nonsense.

Sorry if this is dumb, but why not go to your local gun store and pay $2.00 for them to run buyers info with Va state police?

Let me resurrect this thread with my comments as an outsider:

1) I used to live in FL, where transactions between private parties do not have to be recorded. So, I have bought a Tokarev at a gun show. Paid $200 and that was it. Now I could have bought something in a dealer -- say the usual AR15 of the week -- and then traded it with someone. If police/ATF came knocking at my door, I would just say I traded/sold it and that was that. I can while selling ask to see the other guy's DL to verify he's from FL but that is up to me (I did but would not write anything down). Never did a bill of sale. Even if the firearm ends up being used in a crime, it is not my fault.

2) Now I am in NC and found they have peculiar laws. Like, I *need* to have a bill of sale and the other person needs to show me a CCH (they do not have CCW here like they do in FL) or a Pistol Purchase Permit, which sounds like Jim Crow tech.

Is there any way that VaGT could require sellers to indicate in their post whether or not a Bill of Sale is required. It's very frustrating to reach an agreement with a seller and then have them spring a BOS on you at the last minute. I'm happy to show my drivers license and carry permit but draw the line at permitting a stranger to record my personal information.
Thanks for your time,
Mike

Typically if you have good reviews on this website and show me IDs that's all I need. But that's just me.

The bill of sale form does a couple of very important things; it protects the buyers from guns that have already been used in crimes, and it protects the sellers from crimes that may be committed in the future. It also protects the buyer from suggestions that he had reason to know they seller was illegally in possession (e.g., the gun was stolen), and it protects the seller from suggestions that he had reason to know the buyer was not legally eligible to be in possession of a firearm (e.g., crazy, illegal immigrant, convicted felon, person subject to a protective order, etc.). It also serves as the affidavit required to send guns intrastate from seller to buyer via common carrier (so someone living in Roanoke can buy from a person in Alexandria without either of them having to travel).

You say you're afraid of having a paper trail that leads back to you, and I have to wonder why. Are you a bank robber, burglar, or murderer? If you're not willing to tell your buyer who you are in a documented transaction, you probably ought not be trying to sell guns. I'd have to assume, if you refuse to sign a bill of sale, that you've got a good reason for that refusal, which puts me on notice that I could be committing a crime by engaging in a transaction with you.

The only personal information required is your name and address. No one needs your driver's license number, social security number, date of birth or mother's maiden name. So what's the problem? Isn't your name and address already public information? If not, again, that would tell me I'm on notice that you're a badguy.

The thing about being "on notice" is that as long as you can truthfully say, "I had no idea.", you've got a defense to any crime that requires intent. If you're "on notice", and you engage in the transaction in which you know or ought to know from the circumstances that something's fishy, then you've got "intent", and can be convicted.

People who think that legal protection is "nonsense" just don't know what's going on. Maybe turr3tgunn3r thinks that having car insurance is nonsense, too.

GunDude: some of the information on your blog is wrong, including that on your bill of sale form, and as to shipping. And it's because you're getting legal advice from BATFE and the Virginia State Police. And you're communicating legal advice to other people, and there's no amount of disclaimer that will get you out of a malpractice claim if someone acts on bad legal advice you've given them. (You do not have to be a licensed attorney to be liable for legal malpractice.)

One thing in particular should be clarified: there are no rules whatsoever, Virginia or federal, having to do with ownership of firearms. The rules have to do with possession. Any adult (eighteen or more) can be in possession of a handgun in Virginia, as long as they're not otherwise ineligible. It is illegal for a federally licensed dealer to sell to someone who's under 21, but that doesn't prohibit someone who's 18 from buying, for example, on VGT.

I don't know what copies are floating around, or how they've been modified, so I suggest you download the original. Go to my website: Virginia Legal Defense website and scroll down the page to the second entry under "useful stuff" - right click on the link and do a "save as" to get the pdf form bill of sale. By the way, the second page is just instructions, and there is a discussion explaining why both the buyer and the seller need to have that form executed.

Sir,

May I use your form my gun sale. I realize your name is on the bottom as the author and I did want to ask your permission please?

Thank you,
Time2shoot

I don't want to be LE. I just want to do basic due dilligence. On BOS is it ok just to say:

"Date: __________

I, the Seller, transferred the firearm described below to the Buyer, who provided identification proof of residency in the State of Virginia.

Manufacturer: __________
Model: __________
Serial Number: __________

Seller Name and Signature __________
Buyer Name and Signature __________

By signing above, the buyer stipulates the he/she is not prohibited from this purchase under the Laws of the State of Virginia."

Don't want to put anything on it that is really no one's business. What's the bare minimum paper trail required?

I wont sign nor demand a BOS from someone. I am not the governments record keeper. I am not a dealer, either.
Also, Its not law here in VA,yet.
Just make sure they have a VA drivers license that's valid.

If someone pushes you to sign a Bill of sale, RUN.

The bare minimum is whatever you want, because there is nothing required.
"I, Bob, sold a gun to Steve" Bill of sale right there.

I just sold a gun less than an hour ago. Fifteen minutes before meeting for the sale, the buyer says he requires a bill of sale. I hand wrote one before we met. On it was make, model, SN, AS IS, price, date, name of buyer, county of buyer residence and buyer signature and same data for seller. I looked at his DL to verify his (buyer's) name and county. He pulled out his CHP which I didn't even look at. I never pulled out my DL or CHP so he has no idea if my name or my data on the Bill of Sale was even true/correct.

As he drove off I just chuckled as I found it amazing that he almost let the deal fall through because of no Bill of Sale then didn't even verify the info on the handwritten Bill of Sale I produced.

The bare minimum required is no paperwork at all. The bare minimum is that the buyer and seller need be residents of Virginia and the seller needs to have no knowledge or reason to believe that the buyer is prohibited from possessing the firearm. It truly is that simple. Too many people are afraid of their own shadows.

There is absolutely no requirement to create a BOS under federal or Virginia law.

It provides no legal protection - if you have exchanged emails and PMs legitimate law enforcement can most likely track down the person. As others have stated it is not a great idea to give your personal information out to strangers.

If someone states in course of a sale or trade for a firearm that they live in another state or can't pass a background check that is a Red flag that you are dealing with a illegal sale and should NOT complete the transaction.

Are you seriously giving advice, in a legal capacity, that people should give out their home addresses, to strangers they don't know, on documents that show they own guns?

I don't want the responsibility of having other people's personal information any more than I want the liability of others having mine.

Name, date and signature on a simple bill of sale is more than enough "legal protection." I also ask to visually confirm that the person has a CHP, but that's just me. And if you're paranoid, you could write down the person's license plate number too. But asking for or providing home addresses is just asking for trouble.

it actually does provide you protection. The buyer signs a bill of sale and is saying they can legally possess firearms. so if they are a felon it removes any doubt that you illegally sold them a firearm. it actually prevented a member here from getting a felony charge and getting discharged from the military.

I have no prob with BOS. I have been called a lot of names in the passed when insisting on it as a seller. Nobody has given me an issue as a buyer.

I used to use the C&O form and liked to get a DL#.

But after first encounter with a LEO seller who was OK with a name and address(verified on my VA DL) I am OK with same.

I am actually more concerned as a private sale buyer than a seller. I have more concern of the firearm coming up lost/stolen/etc at a FFL trade in.

I like this form.

Is similar to the C&O form I mentioned earlier.

The link to the bill of sale on the top level post is broken.

There were 2 links in the top post, 1 was not working and I deleted it. Look towards the bottom of the post and try that link.

There is another BOS posted at the following link:

http://www.vaguntrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/296625