I get PMs from members:

1.----I sold a firearm on here last year and the police contacted me today and said the gun was found at a crime scene. They want answers. I dont remember who I sold it to. Can you help? .....NO I CAN'T HELP. DID YOU GET A BILL OF SALE? IF YOU DID YOU WILL HAVE THE NAME OF THE BUYER.

2.---- I bought a gun from a member a while back and I just found out the gun has been reported stolen and the police want to know where I got it from. Can you help? NO I CAN'T HELP. DID YOU GET A BILL OF SALE?

3.---- I bought a gun from a member on here and the gun was stolen out of my car today. I want to contact the member to see if he has the serial number recorded but I can remember who I bought it from. Can you help? NO I CAN'T. DID YOU GET A BILL OF SALE?


RULE #1 ....... MAKE SURE YOU ARE DEALING WITH A VIRGINIA RESIDENT. ASK TO SEE THEIR DRIVERS LICENSE. YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SELLING TO SOMEONE FROM ANOTHER STATE.

RULE #2 ....... IF SOMEONE FROM ANOTHER STATE WANTS TO PURCHASE YOUR FIREARM MAKE SURE THE FIREARM IS SHIPPED TO A FFL IN THEIR STATE FOR TRANSFER.

RULE #3 ...... DON'T DEAL WITH FELONS OR ANYONE ELSE YOU CAN'T LEGALLY OWN A FIREARM.


RULE #4 ..... IF A BUYER REFUSES TO SHOW AN I.D. OR FILL OUT A "BILL OF SALE", OR OFFERS YOU EXTRA MONEY NOT TO OBTAIN HIS IDENTITY..... DON'T WALK....RUN !!!!
IS THIS GUY TROUBLE?? Is he a felon? Or undercover? Or a reporter?
Let's not give the media or "the administration" the fuel they need to pass unnecessary gun laws.
UPDATE-- Use common sense when giving out your personal info. At least your name should be enough. Not necessarily your address and never your SS#.

Recommendation #1 ..... GET A BILL OF SALE TO PROTECT YOURSELF. Better to have it, just in case.

Recommendation #2 ..... Ask to see a concealed handgun permit or a voter card. This greatly decreases the chance they are a FELON.



Military Personnel

Active military personnel permanently stationed in Virginia, including the Pentagon, are treated as Virginia residents for the purchase of a handgun.

Identification and residency are established by the following:

A military photo-identification card issued by the United States Department of Defense and proof that Virginia is the permanent duty station via current military assignment orders is acceptable identification and residency documentation to establish military personnel as residents of Virginia.

If permanently assigned to a mobile unit in Virginia, and the homeport is listed as Virginia; the transaction may be processed as a Virginia resident the same as any other permanent military assignment to Virginia supported by military assignment orders. The individual is treated as a non-Virginia resident if the homeport is listed as any place other than Virginia.

Individuals retired from military service are subject to the same identification and residency requirements as any other person wishing to purchase a firearm; i.e., a primary and secondary form of ID.

Official link to Document is Here - click to view and download

I think this is most awesome!! Excellent advise to our new members.

Is there a law that states you must show ID or have a bill of sale?

We have a general use firearm bill of sale available here:

http://www.vaguntrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/296625#Post296625

Absolutely not.

The law says you can only sell to a Virginia resident, so you should see ID, unless you have some other way of identifying what state somebody lives in. Also, active duty military with PERMANENT duty station in Virginia may buy firearms. If they don't have a Virginia ID, they need a Mil ID and orders.

I don't mind a simple bill of sale that says

"I, Larry, sold this Hi-Point with #24894690 serial number, to Moe, on December 47, 1975." And both parties sign.

+1 rromeo

This site used to be cool and a great place to purchase and/or sell. With our current socialist regime in place, you'd have to be crazy to sign a bill of sale, give them your ID w/ your info, basically say, "here I am, come take my guns and put me into a FEMA re-education camp, please."
And especially, since you are not breaking ANY law, you have to ask yourself, am I the nut, or are you?

The law requires that the seller and buyer of a firearm must be a resident of the state in which the transfer occurs for a FTF transaction.

Furthermore, legally, a person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his state, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms.

A seller is not required by law to see ID; many do as a way to check residency.

A bill of sale is certainly not required by law; many avoid them on principle or as a way of protecting their Personally Identifiable Information (PII).

Identity theft is a real problem folks, and it's made easier by the casual release of PII. We're trained at work on the importance of and approached to protecting PII. Please think twice and protect yourself before providing personal information to a stranger, particularly a stranger who now has reason to believe you keep firearms in your home.

This is becoming as bad as the government. I guess I need to go register to vote so I can buy something lol

I don't like paper trails either. I do have all the necessary "papers please" VADL, Voter ID, and CCW (PCH in Virginia) permit (by the way...all that stuff does not mean I have never been convicted of a felony...not all felons are prohibited from owning a firearm and not all "former" mental patients are prohibited either). A voter ID does not mean I have never been convicted of domestic violence, the Lautenberg amendment stuff (that is federal) so all the ID's in the world will not replace a good old fashion BS detector. The lack of a conviction for any crime or a absence of mental health hospitalization does not mean I should have a firearm in my possession either.

On this site the PM's are real good identifiers of who you are talking to. Everybody that posts in any form on this site is automatically providing an IP address which can be traced directly back to the physical location and the computer it was sent from so keep your "My Stuff".

I don't disagree that ID should be shown but use your common sense as well. Most folks that have no problem showing ID are probably safe. Just remember, with the exception of a VADL the other 2 forms of ID can easily be created with a copier and photoshop. Use your BS detector.

I do not mind doing a BOS but appreciate it when the seller just wants to see ID. Whichever is fine with me.

If someone is willing to drive from NOVA to southwest VA for a hi point and pay 400 bucks for it, that should trigger your BS detector. If it aint a collector piece and someone is too eager, check them closely, get a BOS, and insist on ID.

Just my thoughts!

Wasn't it only a couple of months ago that this was on the front page:



Never give your personal information to a stranger.

I think you could do a BOS and give/get a name and address only from someone's ID and possibly the last four digits of either your OL or SSN. Without a DOB or full OL/SSN your ID is pretty safe. This would give LE sufficient info to follow up on and yet keep your identity safe.

Address is all a criminal needs to find your house and rob you while you're at work and your wife and kids are home.

Brain fart on my behalf.

The bill of sale is not required by law, its just a recommendation.
When doing the bill of sale don't be too generous with your personal info. At least give/receive name and phone , never give your SS#.

But please make sure you are dealing with a Virginia resident.

Last thing you want is someone from D.C. coming to Va and buying a gun from you and taking that gun back to D.C. and committing a crime. LEO is going to want to know why you sold that gun to a non-Va resident.

Yes, this getting to be a real Catch 22 situation. I was a bit surprised when I logged on with Rule #4, particularly with implying that if you do not show ID or fill out a bill of sale you are trouble. Identify Theft is a legitimate concern as is advertising you like firearms and here is where you keep them. I CAN pass a background check and I don't like giving out that much personal information to a FFL, much less someone I have not ever met. I am NOT trouble, don't mind showing a member my VA license, but draw the line at them recording any personal data or requesting copies of it.

Just my $.02

When the guy you bought your new gun from gets his safe broken into (or gets robbed on the way home from the meet) and has your receipt stolen with your address on it, are you going to feel good because he only has four digits of your SSN when he shows up to rob you?

I have a BoS on hand if the Buyer/seller request but I determine what info is provided if any.



1+

In the 30+ yrs buying and selling.
I had two firearms that I know of used for criminal activity, PD called and asked if I sold or were they stolen from me.

No other questions or issues.



A friend of mine liked working girls and had a few guns stolen and three that were used fatally, he didn't know the girls real info and he was never arrested. In most of those cases he didn't know the guns were stolen until the police had told him.
I don't understand either, he had a few other quirks that still puzzle me.

I sold a stolen gun (I didn't know) to a fella and when he went to register it (different state) the PO confiscated it because it was stolen.
The guy showed me the police report and I refunded his money, a detective called and asked me about it. My answers to the Det. "I bought it outside a gunshow for a fair $ but didn't have any other info." End of story.

More recently, I bought a used gun from someone at a local gunshow, but after having it for awhile I determined the gun wasn't for me and I sold it.
Turns out the gun was stolen and the guy I sold it to was LE.
I saw him(LE/buyer) at the very next show which is when I learned about it being stolen.
The officer asked if I had any info on the person I bought it from and informed him I got the same info from that guy as I got from him, none.


Nothing else....


TINFOIL ALERT!!!!!!!
Part of the gift is breaking the paper trail to firearms, as one day they will be coming for them.

Thank you! Excellent post. There shouldn't be a way to know who owns firearms and how many, that would make it too easy to confiscate them someday.

It's too easy to make one ( I sold the ... With sn#... To .... On ...) done

This is why I only sell my guns to a pawn shop. They run the check on the sn take possession and the buck never stops at my house.

Also take a look at this related thread:

http://www.vaguntrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/296625#Post296625

Do you need a bill of sale for an AR 15 upper only?

An upper is classified as an accessory only (the lower is the serialized portion) ... but these days, who knows what some folks may require.

But to answer your question outright - no.