You can also say, I exert my fifth amendment RIGHT under the Constitution and refuse to have any discussion with law enforcement.

I find it horrific that those advocating for bill of sale on all transactions are using the same “ logical “ arguments that anti-2nd amendment people use to demand full registration of all firearms. A famous historical figure used the same argument:

“ This year will go down in history. For the first time, a cilvilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future ! “
Adolf Hitler -1935

The dumbing down of history in our schools, the training to worship law enforcement that has occurred in TV sitcoms and movies ( and some churches sadly) has created this concept that “ good people “ trust government, especially police. Well time for a history lesson: democide killed 260 million people in the 20th century.

In my early 20s I had several cops as roommates. During discussions I often heard, “ well I don’t agree with it BUT it’s the law and I have to enforce it. That mentality has been carefully trained into people by government run schools. How many of you learned about democide in world history that attended the public schools ? Question, who exactly do you think will be tracking down and seizing firearms when that day comes ( and it will ) ? The local law enforcement and ATF. They will be using purchase records from gun shops and bill of sales naively drafted with good intentions. Who do you think will be the first citizens to turn over their private sales records when the government mandates it by law?

Hint: they are voluntarily waiving their right and insist on depriving you of your right to privacy in a transaction now , when it’s NOT Required by law. Folks a bill of sale in a private transaction is just another form of gun registration.

Fine and good to parade around on lobby day defending your RIGHTS,but that accomplishes little if we then turn around and advocate that people waive them. I have a hard time believing that a guy so intimidated by the prospect of the police or ATF contacting them, that they waive their RIGHTS now will stand with us in a real fight for our freedoms when that day comes. Cowardliness may be comfortable but it's the enemy of freedom.

If I could thumbs up your comment I would do it every day for over a year, you hit the nail right on the head with that comment!

Charles.

That is incorrect. The circuit court of the County of the felons residence actually grants permission for the person to purchase possess and transport any firearm allowed by law and ammunition for same. The governor does not restore firearm rights by action of restoration of civil disabilities. Firearm restoration is strictly a matter for the circuit courts. The reason they do it this way is so that the state can offer reasons that the permission should not be granted by way of local knowledge of the person making the request. That means if the requestee is on an s-list somewhere he might have a tougher time getting back his firearm rights.The reason it is called permission is because permission can always be revoked for cause. In a sense we all only have permission to own or possess a firearm because you "right" only extends as long as you don't get convicted of a felony, domestic violence, or are determined to be mentally unstable. On the concealed carry application are the instructions a convicted person needs to follow in the way of supplying supporting documents to show that number 1...he had his civil rights restored by the governor...number 2...he had his firearm rights restored by the court.

Yes a convicted felon can purchase and possess a firearm in Virginia. Just simply read the 4473 or the sp65 before you make declarations that are wrong. Or simply read the code of Virginia...all of the firearms codes!!!

If a convicted felon cannot be trusted with a firearm why in the name of God is he out of prison where he can have access to firearms by illegal means.

No a felon cannot purchase and possess a firearm "UNLESS" his firearm rights have been restored by the circuit court in the county in which he resides. They can be restored, but any felon cannot just purchase a firearm.

I do believe that is exactly what the 4473 says...number 11. That was my point...some on here are making declaratory and emphatic statements that a felon cannot purchase a firearm...That is not an accurate statement.

Im new here, what is chp?

Concealed Handgun Permit

The only reason I am for bill of sale, at least for me... what if I sold the gun to someone and it's used in a crime? When you PURCHASE a gun from a dealer, the serial number linked with your info gets sent in for a background check..l whether you agree with it or not, right or wrong, how is that NOT a defacto registration? Therefor, if the gun you purchased with your info attached to it is sold to someone else WITHOUT PROOF and used in a crime, you'd be up you know what's creek because you don't agree with a (certainly unconstitutional, but in reality) law. No thanks.

Not exactly. The VSP will know you bought a rifle, shotgun, pistol, or other. The serial number goes on the 4473 form, which stays in the FFL's records.

Okay, but if it ever came down to a confiscation, number one, they KNOW you have a weapon and number two, if they wanted more info on said weapon, if at this point it's an all out confiscation, it wouldn't be too far of a stretch of the imagination to think they'd be willing to extra judiciously seize the FFLs records. Either way, as I said, it's a de facto registration... with or without the FFLs records.

The Circuit Court restores your right to purchase, possess, carry, and transport any firearm not otherwise prohibited in the Commonwealth of Virginia...they can purchase a firearm from anFFL or private party...no prohibitions. They are not even prohibited from applying for and being issued an FFL license or a CHP.

And some crappy people have guns and no convictions. Not sure what your point is. I know someone that was a career Army officer. Buried in Arlington National Cemetery. He never should have been allowed anywhere near a gun...so crappy people come in all sorts of colors!

I 100% agree with you sir. I signed one bill of sale years ago and swore it was my last. I still get faces of shock when I refuse to sign from a would have been seller.
I would also like to point out that this law that emerged about Felons not owning firearms is crap.. some of the founding fathers were felons. What happemed to " Shall not be infringed",,thereby ALL and ANY firearms laws would be,,UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The anti-gun judges will determine that the 2nd amdmnt is able to be manipulated. Stalin had his judges too.

I do use a bill of sale form for all transactions; I only use the one I drafted myself, and haven't seen any others that provide the protection that I think is essential for all parties.

The fact is, you have no "right of privacy" as to any purchase and sale transaction involving another person, and particularly one whom you do not know personally. However, the use of a bill of sale form is completely unrelated to any governmental interest and there is no requirement that you supply it other than in response to a valid subpoena or search warrant. It does not constitute any kind of "registration" and is known only to the buyer and the seller.

There are legal risks involved in buying and selling firearms, and my form is designed to protect both parties against those risks when used according to the instructions provided. Suppose you buy a gun from what appears to be a "good guy" with proper documentation, and it turns out to have been used in a murder. How will you prove that you did not have the gun in your possession on the date the murder occurred? Bill of sale form (with the correct date on it, of course). Suppose on the other hand, the seller turns around and reports the gun as stolen to "the authorities"? Bill of sale form. Or you, as the seller, happen to sell a gun to a guy who appears to be a "good guy" with all the proper documentation, and it turns out he's a convicted felon or has been adjudicated insane? My bill of sale form covers that. What if you want to sell a gun other than in a face-to-face transaction (e.g., by shipping via UPS) within the same state? Perfectly legal, but only by following the correct procedure (covered by my form).

People who tell you not to use a bill of sale form (or a defective form such as the Texas model that was floated around here for years) either want you to engage in a transaction in which they know they're doing something illegal (and don't care if you go to jail), or just don't understand their own legal system. It's just plain stupid to take unnecessary risks; you could end up spending twenty years in prison because of a stupid mistake.

This is not legal advice, but I do feel, after thirty years of litigation practice primarily devoted to firearms and personal defense, qualified to state these opinions.

Anyone who wants a copy of my form in pdf format can send me an email -
vgt@defenserights.org

How will you prove that you did not have the gun in your possession on the date the murder occurred?
(quoted from above)

I have a hard time believing that a member of the bar thinks a person has to prove they sold the weapon, or their innocence in any way within the United States. I find it equelly hilarious that you think a " bill of sale" proves it was in fact sold. That is not how we investigate crimes and adjudicate guilt in this country.

Forgive me, but that shows a total lack of understanding of basic American Jurisprudence. I personally don't think you are qualified to represent anyone in a criminal trial based on that comment alone. Good thing you are unemployed according to your profile.

Once a felon, always a felon, unless pardoned by the Governor (for Virginia state court convictions) or the Office of the President (for federal court convictions). Rights can be restored without a pardon, but there are two levels of restoration: the Governor's office through the Secretary of the Commonwealth can restore political rights (voting and such) but has the authority to say that firearms rights restoration is prohibited for that applicant, and a circuit court can enter an order of restoration of the right to bear arms. The latter requires filing a civil case in the form of a petition, and while one has the right to do that himself, my suggestion is, find a competent attorney.

Unless one's political rights have been restored first without a prohibition regarding firearms, a circuit court cannot authorize restoration of firearms rights. And felons are not allowed to have a CHP, because § 18.2-308.09 (6) excludes them from eligibility. I suspect that certain law enforcement agencies are clearing convicted felons on the background check precisely to be able to "get" them when they go to buy a handgun thinking that the CHP makes them eligible. It's a trick to generate easy convictions (which is important at budget time).

Wow...never heard about that before. I was issued a concealed handgun permit 3 weeks after my rights were restored and just recently reissued because it expired. If one were to actually read the application for a chp one would see the part where if your rights to possess a firearm have been restored please attach accompanying documents. Further more I have been issued an FFL license for curio and relics and have purchased firearms from internet C&R dealers and had them mailed to my house. I will be applying for the FFL license that gives me the right to do firearm transfers and sales. I think most firearm owners on these forums are on the way to making sure that we will have universal background checks because some on here have sold firearms to a guy running them for resale in DC. How do I know this...The ATF contacted me because the clown that tried to buy my Glock 30s had my phone number all over his phone. Further more anybody that shows me a current chp cannot prove to me they didn't just get through beating their wife and been charged with domestic violence. So there is very little value in accepting a chp as evidence that you are a good guy. It means nothing. The best you can do is judge someones character not the paper work.

And what makes you a crappy miscreant?

Congratulations on getting your rights back, lizjimbo

No kidding. That's awesome that you got your rights restored man!

1+

If I don’t know you, we’re gonna meet at my FFL

If I need to use an FFL/show a CHP/dance the jig etc...to purchase a firearm via private sale why do I need you?
I'll just buy from FFL and you can keep your used items.


Guns owners in a semi free state imposing CA style gun control purchase rules, without being forced to by the Gov't.

+1, I agree with A-19