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#5069 - 03/24/10 11:04 AM
halfded Offline
Gun fool

Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 726
Loc: Warrenton
City or County: Warrenton
Wow, I guess there is no record..after a time anyway. :shock:

I guess that would be a lot of paperwork and stuff to keep up with.

But...they just don't know who has what?

If anyone cares to expand the conversation on this topic or feels apt enough to explain it in plain English I'm all ears. A lot of the legal jargon and such is lost on me.

Always like to learn something new.
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#5070 - 03/26/10 01:49 PM
idiq Offline
Double barrel

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 59
Loc: Virginia
City or County: Richmond
I recently bought a handgun through my FFL but realized that when showing my VA DRL it is ILLEGAL for me to purchase it if my VA DRL was issued within 30 days, either a first-time DRL or a DUP. The exception being if you have a letter from DMV stating that you've had a VA DRL for > 30 days (in my case DMV provided me with a letter as I just needed a DUP). I remember reading this on the VSP website, but can't find it now. This is important for people out of state coming in, going straight to the DMV and getting a DRL to make a transaction.

As far as records go, I recently was in Finland and in order to get my shooting permit there, they required proof that I owned the firearm in the US. The easiest form to show this was my approved SP65. The dealer I purchased the firearm from told me to contact VSP as he sends them there - VSP told me that since it had been > 30 days, they DESTROY SP65s - shred the documents and purge computer records. After that, it is the dealer you purchased from that you have to obtain them from. I forget the exact period, but the dealer is required to hold it for (I believe) a number of years.

Lastly, forums and websites cost money to run. Bandwidth needs to be paid, and every year so does the domain names. I don't see why we should be excited to evoke what is known as the free rider problem in economics... The only thing allowing out of state transactions seems to be putting us as individual sellers at risk and possibly even site maintainers at risk. If they want to buy or sell from another state so badly, let them go to GunBroker or GunsAmerica and hunt for what they want.

In the case of deception, I would just be sure to check for a VA DRL and make sure it hasn't been issued in the past 30 days. CCP preferred as well. I suppose someone could go around to different states getting different DRLs and waiting, but I'm sure if it came down to that the court would be in our favor...

Isn't there a way to restrict IP-addresses from outside VA from accessing the website?
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#5071 - 03/31/10 06:26 PM
ATFmy3favs Offline
former Moderator (site babysitter)

Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 3636
Loc: Hanover/Mechanicsville
City or County: Hanover/Hampton/VAB/and in between
[user=7501]idiq[/user] wrote:
:

Isn't there a way to restrict IP-addresses from outside VA from accessing the website?


Why?

We have a section for out of state folks to do sell here. They can also buy from those that choose to do the extra stuff required.

It is welcomed by the site and a lot of its members, including me. laugh
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1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G.I.
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#5072 - 03/31/10 10:27 PM
num1fordfan Offline
RUGERS and T.B.T.B.E.B

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 9721
Loc: prince george , va 23875
City or County: PRINCE GEORGE
also  remember  we have alot of military in va   if these guys  are in va and  a memeber of this  site    they shouldnt be punished  if the military  makes them move  out of state
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#5073 - 04/02/10 09:45 PM
NativeWVian Offline
Bolt action

Registered: 06/29/09
Posts: 160
Loc: Loudoun
City or County: Ashburn
:

In the case of deception, I would just be sure to check for a VA DRL and make sure it hasn't been issued in the past 30 days. CCP preferred as well. I suppose someone could go around to different states getting different DRLs and waiting, but I'm sure if it came down to that the court would be in our favor...



I've changed states twice, and both times I was required to relinquish my old license.  Perhaps you could do the learner's permit process like you were starting from scratch, but most states' driver records are linked through the National Driver Register.

Two years ago, I lost my VA license on a trip to Puerto Rico, and had to fly back from a layover in Charlotte on less than an hour's notice to Dulles to go sit at the DMV.  (That was not very fun, and $700, but my company paid me back.)  I had to swear on the form that my original was lost or destroyed.

Moral of the story:  there is no easy way that I know of to have more than one driver's license, short of forgery or perjury.

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Dave

EDIT:  I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's not likely that someone who just wants to buy a nice gun would go through with it.  If they did, they'd have many more charges in court than just an "illegal" gun possesion.


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#5074 - 04/03/10 12:43 PM
3gunShooter Offline
Pea shooter

Registered: 04/02/10
Posts: 9
Loc: NOVA
City or County: Annandale
I am sure the answer is NO, but won't know for sure until I ask.  So here goes...

I am a resident of VA since February 1st, 2010.  I still maintain my FL drivers license and CCW permit because I save $$$ to wait until my vehicle registration comes close to expiration before I change everything over to VA.  Looks like another 8 months before I do that.  FL is a long way to go to pick up gun purchases.

Down side to waiting to get a VA DL is that I am unable to purchase any gun from a FFL dealer because of the lack of a VA DL.  But does that disqualify me as well doing a private purchase/sale on here when I produce a mortgage documents / any kind of bill with my VA address?  Trust me, when it comes to guns, I am by the book, and don't even want to go into any grey area...just want to know if it is legal or if I have to wait.

Off topic question...Does an out of state CCW permit transfer to a VA CCW permit with little delay, or do I have to wait the normal 4-8 of non-gun toting weeks before I get a VA license?

I thank anyone/everyone for your response.  

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#5075 - 04/03/10 01:19 PM
ATFmy3favs Offline
former Moderator (site babysitter)

Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 3636
Loc: Hanover/Mechanicsville
City or County: Hanover/Hampton/VAB/and in between
[user=10628]3gunShooter[/user] wrote:
:

Off topic question...Does an out of state CCW permit transfer to a VA CCW permit with little delay, or do I have to wait the normal 4-8 of non-gun toting weeks before I get a VA license?

I thank anyone/everyone for your response.  


Welcome to VA and vaguntrader. There are a few sites that explain the reciprocity of a conceal carry permit. You happen to now live in a state that honors 27 other states ccp Florida being one of them. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

Not sure how it is with an out of state ccp holder but in Va you do not have to tell the officer you have one. I do just because I know that as soon as they pull up my Drivers License information they will see it anyway and I am a firm believer in being up front with them as I would want the same done for me. Others may disagree.

With regards to your question about purchasing a gun here without a Va drivers license. I don't know the law regarding this when it comes to private sales so I don't want to mislead you. My understanding of the law is you both must be a resident of the state of Virginia. It doesnt say how you prove it. I would think a recent piece of mail and a mortgage document, vehicle registration, or current paycheck would suffice for some and others may choose not to accept any of these. Personally, if you showed me your FL ccp, a piece of recent mail and any one of the other items I listed, I would be OK with it. But I can't speak for everyone on here.
_________________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you.
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G.I.
"One died for your soul, the other for your freedom!"













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#5076 - 04/04/10 01:42 PM
3gunShooter Offline
Pea shooter

Registered: 04/02/10
Posts: 9
Loc: NOVA
City or County: Annandale
Thanks for the reply, ATFmy3favs.

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#5077 - 04/07/10 10:19 PM
Dieselgrin Offline
Marksman

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 313
Loc: Upstate, SC
City or County: Oconee
Does anyone know what is the law regarding "giving" firearms (as in Christmas presents) to relatives (adult children) that live in other states? Once deceased, they would get all of them anyway as heirs to the estate.

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#5078 - 04/08/10 05:05 PM
bsalz Offline


Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 36
Loc: VA
City or County: Lynchburg
Dieselgrin,

I think I can somewhat answer your question. My grandfather passed away last year. He lived in Alabama and owned a small Beretta. I am obviously here in VA. I didn't even know he had a gun, and he didn't "will" it to me. My grandmother decided that she didn't want it and thought my grandfather would have wanted me to have it. She gave it to my mother, who was visiting from Florida. Mom brought the gun back to FL with her last month. She shipped it to me here in VA through a local FFL (I'm in Lynchburg). FFL did a background check ($2), didn't even charge me a transfer fee.

I say all that to say, nobody needs to be "notified" that the gun has changed hands. If I would have been able to visit my grandmother sooner, she would have just given me the gun in person and I would have brought it back to VA. I don't even know where my grandfather got the gun, or when he got it.

When I was making the arrangements to get the gun, I called a local NRA instructor, spoke with a local FFL, and called Fedex to make sure I was not doing anything wrong. Told them exactly what was going on, grandfather passed and grams wanted to give me a gun, Mom had it and was shipping to FL, have no idea where the gun originated. Note that this was all done with a handgun, not a long gun.

As far as legal concerns go, I guess your main concern is how you are getting the guns to the people you want to give them to.

Just my experience, if someone knows better than me I'm all ears.

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#5079 - 04/09/10 12:58 PM
bsalz Offline


Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 36
Loc: VA
City or County: Lynchburg
Diesel,

to add on to my reply yesterday. I think it goes without saying, but I will say it. If one of the relatives you want to "gift" the gun to is a person that for whatever reason would not legally be allowed to purcahse a gun on their won, you should not give it to them.  Like in my case, if my grandmother knew I was a convicted felon, gifting me a handgun would have been a no no.

Also, and goes without saying again, but since you said they were "in other states", you would want to know what their states laws are concerning the type of gun you want to give them (like if they lived in NY or Cali).

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#5080 - 04/09/10 12:59 PM
bsalz Offline


Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 36
Loc: VA
City or County: Lynchburg
and I am NOT a convicted felon, was just giving a hypothetical situation...

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#5081 - 04/11/10 10:29 PM
n664dc Offline
Marksman

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 341
Loc: King George
City or County: York County
Here's a fun fact: It's not illegal for a felon to own a gun. Only possession is prohibited.

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#5082 - 04/21/10 03:28 PM
ibemanson Offline
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 690
Loc: Enon
City or County: Chesterfield


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#5083 - 06/11/10 01:26 AM
bustedknee Offline
Curmudgeon

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Southwest Va
City or County: Wythe
I find it interesting that a felon in possession of a firearm (illegal, btw) does not have to disclose it to an officer because he is protected by the laws of Self Incrimination.

However, many states require folks with carry permits to inform the officer.

How warped is that?
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#5084 - 06/13/10 10:20 AM
nova Offline
Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 938
Loc: nova
City or County: nova
[user=8960]bustedknee[/user] wrote:
:
I find it interesting that a felon in possession of a firearm (illegal, btw) does not have to disclose it to an officer because he is protected by the laws of Self Incrimination.

However, many states require folks with carry permits to inform the officer.

How warped is that?

It would still be illegal to lie to the officer.

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#5085 - 06/27/10 01:37 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered


About felons owning versus possessing firearms...I remember G. Gordon Liddy saying all the firearms throughout his house were his wife's....he said he didn't and couldn't own a firearm.

I imagine if Liddy was sitting in a chair with a firearm on the table beside him and a police officer asked him to hand him the gun to look at Liddy probably would have declined and told the officer he would have to pick it up himself.

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#5086 - 08/18/10 08:56 PM
The Joker Offline
Smoke em if your got em

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 21
Loc: richmond va usa
City or County: Richmond
correct if if im wrong but i believe in the state of va no firearm is ever registered unless it is a machine gun. even when you purchase it from a FFL it is not registered unless it is a machine gun. please correct me if i am wrong
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#5087 - 08/19/10 10:25 AM
n664dc Offline
Marksman

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 341
Loc: King George
City or County: York County
[user=16654]The Joker[/user] wrote:
:
correct if if im wrong but i believe in the state of va no firearm is ever registered unless it is a machine gun. even when you purchase it from a FFL it is not registered unless it is a machine gun. please correct me if i am wrong
That's correct.  However, you can bet the ATF has a database of FFL transactions, even if they won't acknowledge it.

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#5088 - 08/19/10 12:38 PM
bustedknee Offline
Curmudgeon

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Southwest Va
City or County: Wythe
The feds claim they do not keep a record of sales.  Yeah, right!  Maybe before computers.

However, if you believe their claim, consider this:  They do openly require FFL's to make a record of all transactions (buy, sale, trade, repair, & pawn) in a bound book, then keep it and keep it, and keep it, until they go out of business. 

At that point, they require the dealer's records (bound book) to be turned-in to the government.  Those records are then entered into a data base as "Closed Dealers".  They have admitted to this practice.

So, there is a record of all guns purchased, via a dealer.  It is a brilliant government trick to let dealers maintain their registration records for them. Pretty smart, huh?

If the ATF was above board with us, they would let dealers destroy their transaction records after a period of time, instead of maintaining those records forever then turning them in when the business closes.  (I worked for the government for almost 35 years and we were required to destroy many of our records after just 2 years.  No record - no liability!)

Note: the ATF form 473 may be destroyed after 20 years but not the bound book.  The Government is not lying when they say they do not keep the 4473 forms.

Ever wonder why they do not tolerate even the tiniest bit of  sloppy record keeping by a dealer?  Ever seen a dealer that didn't jump like a shot-at-rabbit when the voice on the phone said, "This is Agent Hitler with the ATF."?  

Think about this:   If that 4473 form/bound book is not registration, why does it require all that information about the gun?  Just do the background check then let me pick out whichever gun I want.
_________________________
"I am old, sick, and tired of living. If you feel the need to mess with me, go right ahead."
My Uncle, with his hand on his pistol (in his pocket), talking to a troublemaker.

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#5089 - 08/19/10 03:51 PM
n664dc Offline
Marksman

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 341
Loc: King George
City or County: York County
[user=8960]bustedknee[/user] wrote:
:
Think about this:   If that 4473 form/bound book is not registration, why does it require all that information about the gun?  Just do the background check then let me pick out whichever gun I want.

Indeed. No need for a make model and serial number for a background check.

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#5090 - 08/20/10 05:20 PM
The Joker Offline
Smoke em if your got em

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 21
Loc: richmond va usa
City or County: Richmond
ok good point but ever think maybe the serial number and model is for which one they sold to notify the manufactorer incase of warrenty claims?  or for inventory purposes. but i see where you are coming from thanks for the help
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#5091 - 08/20/10 08:56 PM
n664dc Offline
Marksman

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 341
Loc: King George
City or County: York County
None of that information would need to go on a government form. They don't need to handle warranty stuff anyway. That get's taken up with the manufacturer.

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#5092 - 08/23/10 11:46 AM
idiq Offline
Double barrel

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 59
Loc: Virginia
City or County: Richmond
I was in Finland and brought my Five-Seven with me. In order to grant me a Finnish temporary permit for the firearm, they needed proof I was able to legally own it - so I had to talk to my FFL about receiving a copy of my SP65 showing an approved transaction and cleared background check.

He referred me to the VSP - who openly admitted to me that the maintain copies of the SP65, but claim after 30 days it is deleted from their database and then one has to obtain the SP65 directly from the FFL that the firearm was purchased from.

So I think that while it might not be "registered" if it's not a machine gun, there is certainly a record of the firearm being tied to your name and serial number that has at least entered a VSP database, and maybe it was removed.

Not to go OT on ya, but thought that might be helpful.
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#41576 - 09/15/10 12:26 PM Re: [Re: VaGunTrader]
Chisel Monkey Offline
Single barrel

Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Stafford, Virginia
City or County: Stafford
When you buy from a FFL, you better believe the ATF has a record of it that is maintained for an indefinate period.

Not really sure why everyone is saying that VA doesn't register firearms...what difference does it make when the ATF is?

As far as what proof of residency, non felon status etc., you may require to sell to someone, that is personal preference as far as I know. You just can't knowingly sell to someone that is not allowed by law top possess a firearm.

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